Food suggestions for senior dog with some liver problems

[FurriesMom112]

Thanks Dottie. Was up very late last night but just couldn't find a food to match Harvey's requirements. Then I re-read your post and checked out the cold pressed foods and was pleased with what I saw. I think it's a good possibility. Thank you so much for your help.

[Dottie]

I hope that you manage to find something suitable, whether it be cold pressed or not. Please would you keep us informed? 

[FurriesMom112]

Hi. Our bag of Gentle has arrived. Harvey had some mixed with his current kibble and gobbled it up.
Rang our veterinary surgery tonight to get his current weight for feeding the correct amount and spoke to the nurse about his new food. She said that she didn't know about Gentle and when I said it seemed to fit his requirements she said that coming off his renal food he needs good digestible protein, low phosphrous and high fat.
Gentle has good protein and at  10g phosphrous and 12.5g calcium this seems to be low phosphrous and a good calcium phosphrous ratio.  Unless I'm wrong on this. The fat content worries me. Does anyone have any advice on this. I don't want Harvey losing anymore weight or suffering from a low fat diet.  I am confused whether he does need high or low fat. I trust my surgery but I'm not sure I can trust their nutritional advice. I felt better about choosing gentle but this phone call has sent me into disarray again!
My thoughts are to see how he goes on it, but at Harvey's age and  with his health problems I don't want to keep changing his food. Any advice or thoughts would be welcome. 

[Dottie]

 I think it might be best if you asked the nurse why she advises a high fat diet. Maybe it is because your dog is not considered to have malabsorption of fat. Gentle has an average fat level so hopefully this will be ok. As you know, it is difficult, if not impossible to get every single element just right. You are quite close with this product. If you want to add more meat/fat you could always consider topping up with a bit of raw food. I am currently doing this with my little one just for a change. She is having her Gentle but a little less than normal and I am topping up with some Natures Menu Country Hunter nuggets.  I find these convenient because I can just take enough cubes for the day out of the freezer. 

[FurriesMom112]

I'm going to take a copy of the nutrition and analysis to the vets to see what they think. Iv checked all the percentages and Gentle seems to fit in with most of the recommended requirements as I mentioned above. Harvey's vet has said that he doesn't need a prescription diet so his diet does not need too many restrictions I don't think. Nurses reaction just seems to have 'wobbled' my confidence in giving him gentle so that I feel that I need some reassurance. My reaction was similar to yours Dottie in that that I could supplement it, maybe with a wet food. Just have a horrible feeling that the phrase "a good quality senior diet like royal canin or hills" is going to be ringing in my ears as I leave the surgery!

[Dottie]

I can understand why you were concerned but bear in mind that the nurse, by her own admission had never heard of cold pressed food.  She was therefore not in a position to give a reasoned response.  You are doing the right thing by taking the analysis to the vet but I would use the one on here in the Dog Food Directory because it gives the dry matter weight which is more useful. I cannot see any reason why your dog should not do well on Gentle - it is easily digested and is of high quality.  Personally I wouldn't add anything to it for a week or thereabouts so you can accurately appraise your dog's response. The 1% to 1.2% of body weight recommended daily allowance is quite loose so you can easily add a bit more if necessary. 

[FurriesMom112]

Hi. Just posted my surgerys response to the idea of Harvey eating Gentle on the 'cold pressed food' thread. Some things came up with the nurse that I was hoping others could respond to.
I came out pretty upset and cross today from the surgery.
I'm not even sure they looked at the analysis of the food or even thought about Harvey's requirements. Just stated that the food was not considered good quality.
I did not speak to the nurse I spoke to in the week but she had spoken about the food to the nurse I spoke to today.  I will be speaking to her on Monday although I will get the same spiel I'm sure.
No suggestion about percentages of protein, fat etc that Harvey needs and was even told 'at this stage, just give him something he will eat'. I informed her that although Harv  has health problems he is certainly not on his back legs. I intend to feed Harvey a good diet, to try and maintain or improve his health for as long as possible.
Pretty infuriated  and upset right now.
As I have said before I trust my surgery with Harvey and my other furries, but their advice on nutrition is appalling.

[Dottie]

I am sorry about this and have responded on the Markus Muhle thread here so I won't repeat myself.  By coincidence, I needed to see my vet yesterday about one of my girls and needed dietary advice.  I started a thread on it here in case it is helpful to anyone.  Fortunately I didn't have the problems that you are having because my vet told me what to look for and left it to me.  I've done a bit of research myself and am perfectly happy to follow her suggestion and see what comes of it.

It could be (and I don't know for sure) that your surgery staff are just unfamiliar with this type of product.  I suspect that it is because they are fairly new to this country and have not yet become mainstream.  As you know, they are not manufactured in the UK so it is hardly surprising that knowledge of them is limited at the moment.  Maybe this leaves the veterinary staff at a disadvantage and that is why they have reacted like this.  The only thing I can suggest is that you ask them to read up about it but after that there is nothing more that you can do really. 

[FurriesMom112]

Hi. Just a quick update.
Have tried Harvey on Gentle and although he seems to be getting on with it ok, unfortunately he is not eating it with any gusto! Most of the day he will often leave it and only begin to eat it in the evening when he will only eat it when taken from the hand. Unfortunately, he hasn't taken to eating it as I would like. So it's time for a re-think and a search for an alternative.
I am thinking of burns penlan farm. It has a moist choice which Harvey will prefer I think. Contacted their helpline and the egg variety was suggested, along with the chicken or  fish complete.
Just wondered if anyone had any experiences with this food. My thoughts are to err on the side of caution and go for a lowish fat diet but  just concerned about it being too low in fat and protein. Thought I could supplement it with added'home food' which could increase the protein and fat in his diet. He does currently have some chicken, sweet potato or cottage cheese and enjoys it.
Any thoughts anyone?

[Dottie]

By coincidence I bought two packets of Burns Penlan Farm Chicken just last week because one of my dogs had not been very well.  I wanted a wet food with lower protein and fat and this is the only one I could find.  I contacted Burns and they sent me the dry matter percentages of each of their range:

Chicken & Brown Rice - protein 22.4%      fat  12.1%
Egg & Brown Rice - protein 18.6%               fat 10.8%
Fish & Brown Rice - protein 31.4%              fat 6.9% 
Lamb & Brown Rice - protein 22.7%           fat 15.1%

It is a basic, easy to digest sort of food - meat/protein, brown rice and vegetables so it probably makes it ideal for convalescing dogs or ones who have sensitive digestions.  It is sold in 400g pouches and I paid £1.69p but they may be a bit cheaper online, in boxes.  My dog wolfed it down but then she eats anything and is rather greedy anyway.  Her poo was softer and bulkier than normal but that might have settled down in time.

There are different recommended daily allowances on the side of the packet based on whether it is being fed alone or with kibble.  I served it alone and opted for 1% of her body weight so I weighed it out and stored the remainder in a covered plastic bowl.  It keeps in the refrigerator for up to three days.

I was going to keep her on it and still have the second packet but the Fish4Dogs food that I had ordered arrived so she is on that at the moment. 

[FurriesMom112]

Thanks for that information. Those dry matter percentages don't look too bad. The helpline person recommended the egg variety but the chicken percentages look ok too.  My vet has said that  my dog needs protein for his liver so didn't want to go too low.  I'm going to give it a try and see how he gets on.

[Dottie]

There seems to be quite a variation in dry matter between the varieties.  With my dog's particular needs I had to rule out fish and lamb. Wasn't too keen on egg - I know it is a good protein source but I like my dogs to have meat or fish. I think I would have ended up just using the chicken.  It is a tasty looking (and smelling) product so I am hopeful that your dog will like it. 

[FurriesMom112]

Although the egg variety was suggested to me for my dog and despite it being a good digestible protein, the protein levels in the egg variety  look a little too low to me. Iv read that a moderate amount of protein  is between 20-30%. Not willing to go below the 20% mark so will be opting for the chicken predominately. This morning a burns nutritionist on the other end of the helpline said dogs don't need high levels of protein anyway, which I don't exactly agree with, and in our case my dog does need good protein for liver support so wanted a food with a moderate level. Since increasing his levels of protein, after coming off the hills k/d diet,  my dog seems to have improved in himself so hoping he will continue with the burns.  It's a try it and see!