Author Topic: The Pancreatitis thread  (Read 43780 times)

Dottie

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Re: Low Fat Alternative to Prescription Diet Needed
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2015, 18:27 »
Hello and welcome to the forum. It does sound as if you are having problems with your dog. It is helpful that your vet has ruled out serious illness.

I don't know anything about your prescription diet. However, having fairly recently searched for low fat food for one of my dogs I have found that the only two grain free ones are Wafcol Salmon and Potato and Fish4Dogs Superior Weight Control. If grain is OK then the choice is wider. Usually they are designated light or mature. Burns have a few products that are low in fat. Another one that springs to mind is Pooch & co light (fish)  but there are more.

Did you use the Dog Food Directory to search for low fat food? If not, it can be found here. You just need to set the filters to your required parameters - they are on the left side of the screen. At the bottom there is a slider for fat and if you set it no higher than 10 you should get a variety of products as long as you leave the grain/cereal boxes empty.

The F4D Weight Control seems to have helped my dog but I soak the kibble and she has 4 meals per day, the last one being about 8pm. From experience I have found that Buscopan helps with this sort of problem but it needs to be given as soon as the dog shows symptoms. Metoclopramide is an anti emetic and that too is helpful.

It is a case of trial and error, particularly with meal management but I would definitely recommend soaking the kibble and giving a small meal last thing at night.  Please let us know how you get on and I hope that things improve.
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Eden Holistic Pet Foods

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Re: Low Fat Alternative to Prescription Diet Needed
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2015, 23:30 »
some foods don't appear to be low fat, but because they are low carb the feeding amounts are much lower, which means that the grammes of fat eaten per day is the same as a low fat food, sometimes less. the other advantage is that, being low carb, they also allow the pancreas to work less, since it doesn't have to produce excesses of amylase, often the trigger that starts pancreatitis in the first place.

Similarly, a "low fat" food can require higher feeding amounts, and the fat intake can be as much as a regular fat food

sorry to make the choice more confusing

SarahB

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Re: Low Fat Alternative to Prescription Diet Needed
« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2015, 10:09 »
Thanks for comments.  Having spent hours studying this, I'd come to similar conclusions - think a degree in nutrition is needed!  Though this website is great - having all the info in one place and easy to compare. 

I think we will be on a long road of trial and error until we find what is triggering the problems - it may not be the fat content at all.  At least my dog is extremely fit and healthy otherwise, so that is less of a worry.

I will let you know how we get on!

Victoria

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How much to feed? (Pancreatitis/IBD)
« Reply #33 on: Aug 12, 2015, 06:41 »
We have a 14momth old male Boxer who has had tummy  problems since we got him at nine weeks old. He has just been diagnosed with Pancreatitis and IBD. We are struggling to find a food that doesn't make him unwell. We are resisting the vets recommendation of Royal Canin Moderate Calorie..so far. I have been cooking chicken, rice and veg for him but am unsure about amounts of each and in general how much to feed in total. Does anyone have experience of cooking for their dog and any advice??

Dottie

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Re: How much to feed? (Pancreatitis/IBD)
« Reply #34 on: Aug 12, 2015, 13:19 »
Hello Victoria. It sounds as if you are having a difficult time right now with your Boxer.  Did the vet suggest that you give your dog a low protein/fat diet?  They usually do for pancreatitis.  Also, are you giving well cooked brown rice?  It is reported to be more nutritious than white.

I read an article about it a long time ago and IIRC the author talked of thirds so I presume it was something like one third protein (meat etc), one third carbohydrate and one third vegetables/fruit. They advised giving a good quality all round supplement and the one that I have used was SF-50.  An omega oil supplement (e.g. salmon oil) might be helpful.

Links that might be useful:
How to Make Allergy Food for Dogs
Founders Vet Home Cooking (this is American)

I am sorry that I cannot answer your question about quantity - I think it is impossible to say really because all dogs have different requirements.  It will just have to be trial and error on your part, weighing the food accurately and also taking him to the surgery for weighing every so often.
Your post and comments may be helpful to others. Please remember to update your thread. Feedback to the forum is appreciated.

Victoria

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Re: How much to feed? (Pancreatitis/IBD)
« Reply #35 on: Aug 12, 2015, 19:12 »
Thanks! Very useful. We are trying to find a dry food that works, but he is so hungry that I am cooking for him because he can keep it down, rather than throwing up because of an intolerance to whatever food we are currently testing.

Eden Holistic Pet Foods

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Re: How much to feed? (Pancreatitis/IBD)
« Reply #36 on: Aug 12, 2015, 21:29 »
Sorry to hear your boy isn't well.

I would suggest you start with a single source protein, grain free, low carb food. I may be better to start with a fish based recipe, such as Eden Catch of the Day, as 2% of dogs are intolerant to chicken.

Low fat (actual grammes not just fat%) is often advised during a pancreatic episode since the fat will be harder to digest, but it is higher carbs that tend to be the cause, since dogs have little salivary amylase the burden of digesting starch falls to the pancreas which then has to work extra hard, and hence the inflammation.

IBD can have many causes, but grains and chicken seem to be the two most common.

Feel free to phone the Eden office for a more detailed chat

 :)

Dottie

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Re: How much to feed? (Pancreatitis/IBD)
« Reply #37 on: Aug 13, 2015, 08:23 »
I have been thinking about this issue of quantities in home made dog food. Many years ago I had a trusty old pressure cooker and used it a lot to give my dogs a home made diet.  In those days we did not have all these dog foods and you could get all sorts of cuts of cheap meat from the butcher e.g. beef cheek. I expect that my dogs' diet probably wasn't very well balanced but they survived until old age so it couldn't have been so bad. 

With the problems that your dog has I think you are right in preparing his food yourself but for now I would concentrate more on quality ingredients and in taking it very, very slowly to see if you can elicit what he is intolerant of (if anything). On my own forum we have discussed this and one of our members routinely feeds all her dogs home made food. Here is what she does:

* We feed only root vegetables; carrot, swede, parsnip, sweet potato and a small amount of potato.
* We usually dice the veg and boil it all until fairly soft and then drain and mash it. Occasionally we put in some broccoli or cabbage but they can tend to get a bit gassy when fed brassicas.
* For meat we use a mixture of beef & lamb heart or kidney, neck of lamb or any cheap cut of chicken, turkey, lamb or beef. We never feed pork as I've read that's not good for them. We also avoid liver as it doesn't seem to agree with any of them.
* We cook the meat in a batch and then dice it up and put it into small bags. The bags of food are then frozen and used as we need them.
* We used to freeze the meat and veg together but found that they like it much better if frozen separately and then mixed at time of feeding.
* Once a week we mix veg with a tin of oily fish such as sardines and also a couple of times a week feed raw chicken wings to give them the calcium they need and a bit of crunch.

The suggestion in the aforementioned article is 40% protein (meat, chicken, fish), 50% vegetables and 10% carbohydrate.  The problem with that is that it is a lot of vegetables and I wonder if that might exacerbate the inflammatory bowel disease.  As David says, fish is usually helpful for dogs like yours as it is easily digested.

I don't know what you have tried,but if you go down the commercial dog food route, choose one that is clearly labelled and very simple in terms of ingredients. Wet foods are often better in this respect, particular ones like Wainwright's grain free, Naturediet and Natures Menu pouches/cans although there are others. These can be found on the dog food directory of this website, using the filters on the left hand side.   The problem with some of them is that the fat and protein levels tend to be higher so you ought to ask your vet about suitable levels.  Look at the dials at the bottom of each product - they give the dry weight percentages.  Although it is not the same as your dog, one of mine has gastric problems and I've found that Fish4Dogs seems to be helping.  It is quite basic - just fish and potato. I always soak the kibble to help with digestion and she has it divided into four meals per day.
Your post and comments may be helpful to others. Please remember to update your thread. Feedback to the forum is appreciated.

Victoria

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Re: How much to feed? (Pancreatitis/IBD)
« Reply #38 on: Aug 13, 2015, 10:10 »
Thank you so much Dottie and Eden. As I Said Oscar has had problems since a very young pup, we fed him on Burns puppy and then moved him onto Skinners Field and Trial, so felt we were feeding him reasonably well, but he has become increasingly poorly. I know I am being churlish but I really resent buying food only available through a vets, although I will if I have to, but am determined to exhaust other avenues first.

So far, we have tried and had to reject Burns Sensitive plus, both varieties. I then gave him a break and fed him home cooked food, chicken, brown rice and veg which he adored. am now slowly introducing Purina Sensitive EN and he hasn't been sick in the last 24 hours. I have also reduced the amount of rice we are giving him, having taken on board what Eden Holisitic Pet Foods says about carbs, so am hopeful we may be able to move him onto Purina permanently, although am tempted to keep,cooking for him, but would need advice on supplements etc.

I do really appreciate the help, thank you again.


Dottie

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Re: How much to feed? (Pancreatitis/IBD)
« Reply #39 on: Aug 13, 2015, 10:20 »
I do hope that the Purina helps.  Regarding supplements if you go back to home cooking, as mentioned before, two that are worth considering are SF-50 and a good quality salmon oil.  Whilst carbs are currently getting a bad press right now, your dog has particular problems and and he does need to feel that he has had a meal.  This website does not look on carbs as necessarily a bad thing but advocates good quality ones such as well cooked brown rice or oatmeal.  Sweet potato is also a good choice.
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Victoria

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Re: How much to feed? (Pancreatitis/IBD)
« Reply #40 on: Aug 13, 2015, 10:43 »
Thank you for info re supplements. I didn't mean to infer website was anti carbs!

Dottie

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Re: How much to feed? (Pancreatitis/IBD)
« Reply #41 on: Aug 13, 2015, 11:25 »
I didn't think that Victoria.  I merely mentioned carbohydrate because your dog has particular problems.  If you reduce them then you have to replace that with something else.  Some people give vegetables but that may not be suitable for your dog.  A healthy dog can use extra meat (higher protein and fat) but you said that he was subject to pancreatitis and  vets often suggest a diet lower in fat.  If your vet could tell you what kind of balance is appropriate then that might be helpful. 
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Pandapaws

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Hi all,

Firstly, here are Panda's stats as requested in the forum:

Breed of dog: Dalmatian
Sex F
Age 10
Diet - Royal canin low fat GI, plus home cooked boiled chicken, turkey and white fish with veggies (trying to feed low GI such as broccoli, cabbage, sweet potato, green beans... also has applaws tins.
Weight to include current weight and ideal weight 18.5 kg -back to ideal weight now since last acute bout. (she is very petite for her breed, I am sure this is her correct weight)  ::)
Nature of the problem, including how long your dog has had it. Chronic and acute Pancreatitis. Since Feb, but could have been chronic for a long time. The first bout of chronic nearly killed her. :(
Known allergies/intolerances. Beef gives her bad skin, as does pork. Anything too rich goes through her.
General health. Was good for her age before this whole pancreatitis thing. Always had spondylosis, and urinary incontinence.
Veterinary consultations - She has spend a lot of time in the vets. Ultrasound shows slight inflammation but no visible masses. She has a grade 2 heart murmour. She needs a bronchoscopy for a long term cough but can't be knocked out as anesthetic can aggravate pancreatitis. Have been advised to undergo fine needle aspiration on the pancreas.  Medication has been varied. She is on Gabapentin/buprenorphene for pain, metronidozole to prevent infection, cerena for sickness if she vomits... The last time she came off antibiotics she had another acute bout. She also has psyllium, fortiflora, yumove and propalin (lifelong urinary incontinence)

Main question:
Am really struggling with so much conflicting advice!!

Does anyone have any advice or similar experiences regarding feeding an entirely home cooked diet for a 10y/o Dalmatian who has had two acute bouts of pancreatitis and also has chronic pancreatitis? The vet wants to keep her on Royal Canin low fat GI but I know it is rubbish food! (she used to be on Akela and Millies Wolfheart before she was ill but it contains too much fat) She never seemed to get on with raw despite all my efforts (I would love to feed her raw but she really doesn't cope with it) I am currently feeding some of her meals as homecooked -boiled chicken, turkey and white fish with veggies... but I know long term she needs a specific balance of vitamins and minerals. Is there a supplement that I can add to her limited list of foods she can eat that will create a balanced diet that isn't too high in fat? Vet says wet food should be lower than 3% fat and dry should be 7% -this is pretty much non existence apart from on the RCanin GI hell food. :(

Would massively appreciate any help or advice, or to hear similar experiences. :)
TIA x

Tinyplanets

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Hello and welcome to the forum, I am sorry to hear that your dog is so ill. I am sorry that I haven't had any experience with pancreatitis but hopefully somebody will be able to share their experiences.  It sounds like you have tried lots of options already.

Home cook seems like it may be a good option in helping to keep the fat content low but as you say it is then important to ensure your dog is getting everything she needs in terms of nutrients. There is  some discussion about home cooked food in thisthread which may be of some use. I hope you can find a workable solution.

Dottie

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Hello and welcome to the forum.  It does sound as if your dog is going through a very bad time right now and I can understand your confusion.  I don't have any personal experience of pancreatitis in a dog but there are some threads on the forum about this condition - just put pancreatitis into the search box above and you can then choose which ones might be of interest.

Raw diets are often higher in fat so that might be one of the reasons that your dog cannot tolerate it.  The lowest complete one that I found is Natures Menu Country Hunter nuggets but there may be more at a similar level - you can use the filters in the Dog Food Directory to search for others. 

It would be helpful if the vet could tell you what percentage (dry weight) of fat you should be aiming for.  You could then use that parameter to help search the Dog Food Directory for low fat dry food.  It is unlikely that you will find a quality wet food that is low fat but you can soak kibble and some dogs tolerate it better this way.   I have just searched for you, using the filter for fat set at 5% to 10% with no red ingredients, natural and clearly labelled.  It returned one full page of results, many being marketed for dogs who need to lose weight or senior dogs.  Four of those results were products from Burns.  If you need any help with using the Directory please ask.

The choice is greater in products that contain grain but very limited in grain free.  The fat level in cold pressed foods is also  on the low side - Gentle has a dry weight of 10.7%  fat so if that is acceptable it could be worth a try.  If you are unfamiliar with cold pressed food, we have a thread here which explains all about them.  These products are easy to digest and processed at low temperatures so retain more of the nutritious elements of the ingredients. 

Home cooked sounds like a good idea but is a lot of work and you need to do some homework.  There is a thread here  which may be of use to you.  Regarding vitamin supplements, the one that I know of and has a wide range of vitamins, minerals etc is SF50..   You must make sure that the dog gets sufficient calcium in the diet and some people give supplements or ground up egg shell.  Alternatively, search for foods that are rich in calcium and ensure that the dog gets some of these on a daily basis.  I read that a small amount of offal should also be included but I stand to be corrected on that as I do not home cook for my dogs on a regular basis.

The only other thing I can think of is to ask your vet if he or she knows of a canine nutritionist - they will be able to give you more definite advice and may be able to help you formulate a suitable home cooked diet.   
Your post and comments may be helpful to others. Please remember to update your thread. Feedback to the forum is appreciated.


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