The Pancreatitis thread

[David]

Since my last post I've continued with the Royal Canin whilst I continue my research. He's doing fine at the moment. I have a couple of issues I'm struggling with. David's article refers to feeding foods with fat of 10% or less Dry Matter. Whilst I can see the need to use the dry matter calculation when comparing kibble with wet or raw, I'm struggling to see why it is necesary to use this when only looking at wet or raw. The way I look at it the moisture is a good thing and means the food levels are diluted and therefore more gentle on his digestive system. I read recently that dogs need protein, fat and naturally occurring moisture. I've spoken to a number of manufacturers, raw and wet and kibble and no one seens to know where this dry matter guide has come from. I should say I've come across it elsewhere in my research so it's not just Davids guidance.
Secondly David mentions using Salmon oil or EPA oil. I don't know if I'm having a senile moment but can anyone tell me what EPA is! Also I was surprised oil supplements are good given the fat issue. I'm particularly interest given David's comments about reducing lipid as I believe it is something to do with high lipids that effects schnauzers.
I wonder if David could help with these points raised by his article

Hi DQ. Good questions...

Dry matter is important even when comparing only wet and raw foods because their moisture levels can vary quite considerably which can have a large impact on the actual levels of nutrients in the food. For example...

A wet food with 5% fat and 60% moisture will have a dry matter fat content of 12.5% while a similar food with 5% fat but 80% moisture will have 25% dry matter fat - double that of the first food.

Of course, if all of the foods being compared have exactly the same moisture level then the dry matter calculation isn't necessary for every food but it will still have to be done to find the fat level you are aiming for at the that moisture level.

EPA stands for eicosapentaenoic acid - an omega-3 oil found in fish body oils. Although they are from the same family as other fats, omega-3's affect the body very differently. They fulfil all sorts of extremely important roles in both dogs and humans but most significant for dogs with pancreatitis is that they help to reduce the level of fat in the blood stream which means less work for the pancreas and a better chance of recovery/prevention.

I hope that helps.

[DQ]

Thanks for everyones comments and advice. I'm going to start introducing some home cooking and see how it goes. I'll let you know how we get on.

[DQ]

I last posted in April and since then it's been a bit of a rollacoaster. My dog was first diagnosed with pancreatitis in April, in May he had a bought of colitis and in June another attack of pancreatitis so as you can imagine  feeding and caring for him has been difficult to say the least. Rightly or wrongly I still can't bring myself to feed a dry food and as is well documented finding a wet/raw food with a dry matter fat level below 10% is impossible, unless you feed Royal Canin which is 1.7 wet.Added to this my dog lost a lot of weight. After the last attack I really tried with the Royal Canin. Prior to becoming ill he was fed  250g of raw a day. I got as far as feeding 500g of RC and he was still loosing weight. The RDA for RC is 675g but I couldnt see any way I would get that much down him, or how it could be good for his digestion to be feeding almost 3 times as much food. I also worked out it would cost me over £120 per month!
He was so thin and depressed I couldn't go on with it so I found a couple of recipes for feeding a poorly dog and started home cooking for him. He gradually began to pick up, put on weight and be so much more happier.
in the mean time I continued to research feeding with pancreatitis. I still can't find out where the 10%dry matter figure came from and as I've said before in my thinking naturally occurring moisture is good, and easier to digest. So I have looked at raw and wet foods below 10% . I then spoke to some one who works for a vet who advises one of the raw food companies.  By chance she had a dog with pancreatitis and she was managing to feed raw. Like me she has difficulty keeping weight on her dog and so she mixes different fat levels together. So since then I have gradually introduced raw to his diet. Natural Instinct do a Special range at 4.6 and I add their Banquet turkey to it. To keep the variety he also has Nutriment Low Purine at 7.9 and some times venison or Senior. He has 2 raw meals and 1 homecooked a day. He is putting on weight and is bright and happy again. My vet is aware of my thoughts.
I appreciate myactions have no nutritional basis but my thinking  feels right to me and my dog is clearly happy. Only time will tell. He may have further attacks and my vet says they could happen even on Royal Canin so I will continue with my regime.
One final point, another post elsewhere mentions treats. I have to say I'm not a big treat giver. They both have cooked chicken or liver training treats and raw veg when I'm preparing my evening meal and thats about it
 

[Tinyplanets]

Thank you for taking the time to update. I am glad you have found something which seems to be working well for your dog, Long may it continue.

[RHEBDEN]

I was trying to understand the fat conversion here but as I read it a 15kg dog on this diet would consume 42.3g fat per day and yet on a dry diet is would be between 15-20g. Am I correct?

[Rachel]

As a new member and having a dog recently diagnosed with an acute bout of pancreatitis, joining this forum has been very informative but very confusing. SO I will try and summarise what I have taken from the thread - I do hope someone will correct any errors in my thinking because I really want to make sure I am doing the best I can for my beautiful girl.

Feeding low fat is vital and should be less that 10% or less of dry matter content of food. (Still struggling to work out the sums a bit though).

Sugars and carbohydrates should also be a consideration because of the role of the pancreas in metabolising sugars - so as not to increase the workload and end up dealing with diabetes too.

I have looked at a lot of the prescription or low fat pre prepared raw, wet, dry and dehydrated foods and they either seem to contain higher amounts of fats OR high percentage of high carbohydrate foods like potato, sweet potato, parsnip rice etc.

I have decided to keep feeding a little raw - now and again she will have some raw home made.

In my veg paste blended very fine. I use (in order of quantity) celery, courgette, sweet potato, broccoli, cauliflower, carrot including a few carrot tops some salad leaves from the garden and various herbs eg mainly parlsey, some marjoram, ocassional sage leaf etc.

Venison with mixed raw veg paste.
Turkey breast with veg paste.
White fish with veg paste.

I have also been making cooked meals to use for at least 1 meal and sometimes 2 using the above ingredients with home made watered down chicken stock.
I add a desert spoon of bone meal to her meals and she also has half ground up tablet of pancreatic enzymes in every meal.
She has 1/4 tspn of golden paste in every meal.
She has other issues including glaucoma luxated lense, joint issues (and a corn we are treating homoeopathically too!)
I have a concern about vitamins - does anyone have advise about feeding additional vitamins - is it a good idea or not? - what do you use?

Any comments advise etc would be very greatly appreciated.

Rachel

[Dottie]

As you say, low fat food does contain a lot of carbohydrate.  Was the recent episode of pancreatitis acute on chronic or a single episode? If the latter, do you need to reduce the fat long term?  Your dog has coped with raw food and that also makes me wonder if you have to be quite as strict with fat. Obviously you need to talk to your vet about this though.

Commercial dog foods are restrictive although there are ways of enhancing them.  You seem to be looking for a diet that is tailor made. You have already made considerable progress in a part home cooked diet and if you want to take this a bit further, there are some links in the home cooking section of the forum. The Facebook groups are particularly useful although they do not deal with diets for  illnesses. They have much information in the files though, including links to useful articles and books. The Balance IT website will give you recipes for specific illnesses although there is a charge.

If you go for a totally home made diet then calcium needs adding in the correct amount. Some give ground up egg shells. There is some excellent information about this in the aforementioned FB group. As for vitamins, the best all round one that I know of is SF-50 (formerly SA-37). I have used it in the past and would be inclined to use it as a fail safe with a totally home cooked diet. It contains calcium so you would need to do the sums re adding this separately. 

Edit: Have you looked at the Lupo Sensitive range of food?  there are two that are low in fat - 24/10 and 20/8.  The former might be helpful. I don't know the carbohydrate level as it is not mentioned in the product review but would imagine that, like other cold pressed foods it is above average.

[Meg]

Rachel another suggestion for you might be to consider researching air-dried food, which begins with raw, fresh ingredients such as meats, vegetables, fruits and herbs. The water is then removed by warm air slowly evaporating the food's water content. Then just before feeding you add water to rehydrate the food to resemble it's original form.

The allaboutdogfood dog food directory lists air-dried products made by "Pure Pet Foods" and "Land of Holistic Pets (Robbies)" which have Protein levels within the 20-30% range and Fat levels within the 5-10% range. 

Links are here:
 https://www.allaboutdogfood.co.uk/dog-food-reviews/1692/pure-turkey-terrific

https://www.allaboutdogfood.co.uk/dog-food-reviews/0216/robbies-brown-rice-and-chicken

https://www.allaboutdogfood.co.uk/dog-food-reviews/0493/robbies-brown-rice-and-salmon

[Meg]

The composition and analysis information for Lupo Sensitive 20/8 is also listed here https://markus-muehle.de/en/cold-pressed-dog-food/lupo-sensitiv-208/ yet still with no mention made of moisture levels. Therefore, using David's default (of 8% moisture) equates the carbohydrate level as follows: 100% minus 20% protein minus 8% fat minus 7.5% ash minus 8% moisture =56.5% carbohydrate of which the fibre (the indigestible part of carbs) is 3.5%.

Lupo Sensitive 24/10 is here https://markus-muehle.de/en/cold-pressed-dog-food/lupo-sensitiv-2411/  and gives a carbohydrate level of 100%-24% protein-10% fat-7.4% ash-8% (default) moisture =50.6% carbohydrate of which the fibre is 3%.

[tiddy]

Hello , i am new hear , i have a 2year old springer with diabetes , started at 6months after sterilisation, in Portugal, vets here are a nightmare they have no idea about feeding etc . i have tried raw but her bg levels are still a bit high , anyone have any ideas on which dry food is good . Ellie is underweight , not fat 

[Dottie]

Hello and welcome to the forum. I understand that some people feed raw food to dogs with a history of pancreatitis but I would imagine that one would have to choose meat with a lower fat content.   I can't really advise you on what to feed your dog as I am unfamiliar with the dog food market in Portugal.  The only thing that has just come to mind is that we had a member who lives in Spain and was able to source cold pressed food. This tends to be low in fat and very digestible. If you are interested, please have a look at this page of the thread on cold pressed food.  If you are interested in home cooking for your dog you would need to research this carefully to ensure that he gets all the required nutrition. We have a section on home cooking for dogs here and it contains a number of useful links.

[Dottie]

Butternut Box has some information on their website about using their products in dogs who have pancreatitis. They recommend the chicken and turkey recipes for this rather than the beef and lamb. The information on this is here.

[Seaweed]

Bella and Duke, A Guide to Pancreatitis in Dogs. https://www.bellaandduke.com/guide/pancreatitis-in-dogs/

[Seaweed]

Three vets talk about pancreatitis. https://www.facebook.com/therawvet/videos/855367928276215/

[Seaweed]

Chronic Pancreatitis - Why it isn't just about low fat. https://www.facebook.com/therawvet/posts/888004321610157?__tn__=K-R