Author Topic: Dried meat feed  (Read 2900 times)

4max

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Re: Dried meat feed
« Reply #15 on: Feb 08, 2018, 15:38 »
@Meg
Thank you for your information. Unfortunatelly the infos didn´t help to clarify my questions.

Meat component content 25% dry matter. I suppose it means fresh meat. OK?

Meat meal component in the dry food content 8 - 10% of water. Is this right?

From your explanation I understand that dry meat should be recalculated into fresh meat? with rehydratation ratio 75% (i.e. putting into ingredient 75% water). However, this would mean that dry meat component declared in the ingredient statement is completedly dry (dry matter). Is all what I said correct?

Let me use you calculation sample to calculate meat Eden meat content.
 
Freshly Prepared Chicken 19%, Freshly Prepared Salmon 15%, Chicken Liver 2.5%, White Fish 2%, total = 38,5% i.e. 38,5g
Dried Chicken 18%,  Dried Herring 12.5%, Dried Duck 4%, total = 34,5 devided by rehydration factor 0,25 = 138% i.e. 138g
Final figure is 138.5 I do not see any relation to 80% of meat content in the Eden food. How do you come to the result that the above meat content is 80% of total?

These are remining ingredients: Sweet Potato 12%, Chicken Fat 4.5%, Tapioca 3.5%, Whole Egg 2.5%, Pea Fibre 2%, Lucerne, Chickpea, Minerals & Vitamins, Carrot, Spinach, Apple, Rosehips, Camomile, Burdock Root, Seaweed, Cranberry, Aniseed & Fenugreek, Fructooligosaccharides (461 mg/kg), Glucosamine (341mg/kg), MSM (341mg/kg), Chondroitin (240mg/kg), Thyme, Marjoram, Oregano, Parsley, Sage.


Eden declare 80% meat and 20% vegetables and fruit.
Is chicken fat meat? Egg is whether meat nor vegetables. Where to put the chicken Fat 4.5%, Whole Egg 2.5%, into meat?
Is ingredients list clear and does not leave room for missinterpretation?







Meg

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Re: Dried meat feed
« Reply #16 on: Feb 08, 2018, 21:49 »
Quote
@Meg
Thank you for your information. Unfortunatelly the infos didn´t help to clarify my questions.

Yet hopefully have helped to explain how the rehydrated weights are achieved  ;)  - by using a rehydration ratio which is what I was led to believe was being asked here:
Quote
I suppose water content in the dehydrated (dried) meat used as an component in the dry dog food can vary on a large scale. Each producer can dry meat to the extend he needs in order to pack into its product needed amount of meat.
  ......if I've understood correctly that is....... and the answer is that there are specifically defined moisture levels, which must be based on "officially published literature", ergo a link to the McCance and Widdowson’s databases.

The ingredients which make up a food will add up to 100(%) . Dry weight ingredients using the appropriate rehydration ratio would give a rehydrated weight greater than their original dry weight.

In a nutshell yes this means that all the rehydrated weights will be greater than the original dry weights and so added together with any of the ingredients that have not been rehydrated, will be greater than 100.

As an aside, if a recipe has a larger percentage of dried cereals followed by a smaller percentage of dried meat it follows that using rehydration ratios of  0.85% and 0.25% respectively would give results with the meat of a greater rehydrated weight than the cereal.

I'd suggest contacting Eden directly and ask them to explain:
Quote
Is ingredients list clear and does not leave room for missinterpretation?
and also I'd ask what rehydration ratios (if any) they are using per ingredient.

4max

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Re: Dried meat feed
« Reply #17 on: Feb 09, 2018, 16:50 »
@Meg
Thank you Meg for your explanations. However, the questions were not answered.
You are using a lot of words in order to explain a few simple questions. I am very sorry and I appologise but I have got an impression that your replies remind me the comunication of pet food producers.

Hopely I didn´t oversee something but I didnt find any post regarding meat meal and dried or dehydrated meat in the literature that you recomended "McCance and Widdowson’s Composition of Foods".


Maybe there is someone else who can simply explain my questions from the post

@Meg

Meat component content 25% dry matter. I suppose it means fresh meat. OK?

Meat meal component in the dry food content 8 - 10% of water. Is this right?

From your explanation I understand that dry meat should be recalculated into fresh meat? with rehydratation ratio 75% (i.e. putting into ingredient 75% water). However, this would mean that dried meat component declared in the ingredient statement is completedly dry (dry matter). Is all what I said correct?

Let me use your calculation sample to calculate meat Eden meat content.
 
Freshly Prepared Chicken 19%, Freshly Prepared Salmon 15%, Chicken Liver 2.5%, White Fish 2%, total = 38,5% i.e. 38,5g
Dried Chicken 18%,  Dried Herring 12.5%, Dried Duck 4%, total = 34,5 devided by rehydration factor 0,25 = 138% i.e. 138g
Final figure is 138.5 I do not see any relation to 80% of meat content in the Eden food. How do you come to the result that the above meat content is 80% of total??

These are remining ingredients: Sweet Potato 12%, Chicken Fat 4.5%, Tapioca 3.5%, Whole Egg 2.5%, Pea Fibre 2%, Lucerne, Chickpea, Minerals & Vitamins, Carrot, Spinach, Apple, Rosehips, Camomile, Burdock Root, Seaweed, Cranberry, Aniseed & Fenugreek, Fructooligosaccharides (461 mg/kg), Glucosamine (341mg/kg), MSM (341mg/kg), Chondroitin (240mg/kg), Thyme, Marjoram, Oregano, Parsley, Sage.

Eden declare 80% meat and 20% vegetables and fruit.
Is chicken fat meat? Egg is whether meat nor vegetables. Where to put the chicken Fat 4.5%, Whole Egg 2.5%, into meat?


Meg

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Re: Dried meat feed
« Reply #18 on: Feb 09, 2018, 17:38 »
@Meg
Thank you Meg for your explanations. However, the questions were not answered.
You are using a lot of words in order to explain a few simple questions. I am very sorry and I appologise but I have got an impression that your replies remind me the comunication of pet food producers.


Maybe there is someone else who can simply explain my questions from the post

I apologise if you feel my answers are using a lot of words and are not answering your questions.

As frustrating as this is (wearing my "cone of shame, many words" hat... ) I realise you are asking these questions generically rather than specifically regarding an individual food. With that in mind I wonder if perhaps questions regarding Eden food might be answered in a clearer way by an Eden pet food producer?

Dottie

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Re: Dried meat feed
« Reply #19 on: Feb 10, 2018, 09:52 »
Thank you for contributing to this informative and interesting subject. I have asked David to take a look at the thread because it seems to require his expertise. He will be doing this, but probably not for a few days. Perhaps we could wait for his contribution and then continue the discussion?
Your post and comments may be helpful to others. Please remember to update your thread. Feedback to the forum is appreciated.

4max

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Re: Dried meat feed
« Reply #20 on: Feb 10, 2018, 17:51 »
@Meg

As frustrating as this is (wearing my "cone of shame, many words" hat... )

Hi Meg, I am soo sory. Please don´t feel frustrating , I am thankfull for all your support and information you posted to this post.  :)

Lets wait post from David. I believe he will make the dry meat matter more clear.

4max

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Re: Dried meat feed
« Reply #21 on: Feb 11, 2018, 17:12 »
Quote
Finished products containing less than 14 % moisture (dry products) or semi-moist products
To avoid misleading purchasers, in order to make a claim for a component added in a dehydrated or concentrated form, all dehydrated or concentrated component s must be rehydrated and the claim will be based on the percentage of the claimed component in the rehydrated form.
This is quotation from FEDIAF Code of Practice...

Quote
Dried Chicken and Turkey (>28%), Maize, Wheat, ...
This is a meat component in the ingredient list description of "Eukanuba Puppy Medium Breed" that is signed with "30% and more meat in dry matter".

If you would apply the FEDIAF instruction to this Eukanuba food the meat content would be something like 10%.

So who/what is wrong - food producer using wrong product descriptor or something else?

FEDIAF says "all dehydrated or concentrated components must be rehydrated". In my opinion the meat meal is a "concentrated component" and as a such it should be rehydrated in the same way as dehydrated meat. Shouldn´t it?
 

David

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Re: Dried meat feed
« Reply #22 on: Feb 12, 2018, 13:58 »
Hi all,

Apologies for taking so long to get back to you.

First off I did hear back from Bern (the UK distributors of Orijen) on Friday.

Quote
There are two kinds of dried meats, rendered meals or dehydrated meats.
 
The process of creating a meat meal involves cooking and separating the fats and oils from the meat, and then the remaining ingredients are heated to remove the moisture content.
 
The process of creating a dehydrated meat is similar, but takes less time and involves mechanical centrifuge rather than heat to separate the fats and oils. The meats are then dried at low temperatures (90°C). Dried meats are concentrated protein sources that are custom made for us in Wholeprey ratios, using the flesh, meat, bones and cartilage. All ingredients are from animals deemed fit for human consumption and processed exclusively in human grade facilities.

So, in the case of Orijen, the 'dehydrated' meats do indeed refer to something other than meat meal. Thank you for bringing this to my attention 4max. This is news to me as numerous other companies use exactly the same term ('dehydrated meat') to refer to meat meal so I was assuming Orijen was in the same boat. You are quite right that it will throw my dry matter meat content calculations off somewhat so I will add that to my ever-lengthenning list of updates. I have asked Bern to confirm the moisture content of their dehydrated meats and I will post here when I get a reply.

On the subject of rehydrated percentages, they may be used by manufacturers to highlight a particular dried ingredient but it must be made clear that it is doing so. For example you might see "dried carrots 2 % (equivalent to 9.6 % of carrots)" but the second part is completely optional. If you do not see this kind of statement after an ingredient, then any percentage provided will refer to the mixing bowl amount (i.e. not reconstituted). Ingredients must also always be listed in order of their mixing bowl percentages (again, not reconstituted).

I hope this clears up at least a little of the confusion but if not I'll be right here.

4max

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Re: Dried meat feed
« Reply #23 on: Feb 13, 2018, 12:18 »
Thank you David. We are a step further. Let´s wait reply from Orijen.

In the meantime I would come back to the rehydration matter.

This is a statement from the Eden original page.
Quote
Freshly Prepared Chicken 19%, Dried Chicken 18%, Freshly Prepared Salmon 15%, Dried Herring 12.5%, Sweet Potato 12%, Chicken Fat 4.5%, Dried Duck 4%,

At you page the same Eden product has this declaration:
Quote
Chicken 19%, Chicken 18% (from Dried Chicken), Salmon 15%, Herring 12.5% (from Dried Herring), ... Duck 4% (from Dried Duck),

The above declarations are an example of what I understand with the "FEDIAF says "all dehydrated or concentrated components must be rehydrated". The declaration at the Eden page content "dried meats". The declaration at Allaboutdogfood seems to be adapted to the version that FEDIAF prescribes.

I don´t understand why the Eukanuba dried meat component is treated differently.

4max

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Re: Dried meat feed
« Reply #24 on: Jul 12, 2018, 14:03 »
@David
Quote
So, in the case of Orijen, the 'dehydrated' meats do indeed refer to something other than meat meal. Thank you for bringing this to my attention 4max. This is news to me as numerous other companies use exactly the same term ('dehydrated meat') to refer to meat meal so I was assuming Orijen was in the same boat. You are quite right that it will throw my dry matter meat content calculations off somewhat so I will add that to my ever-lengthenning list of updates. I have asked Bern to confirm the moisture content of their dehydrated meats and I will post here when I get a reply.

I am wondering when will we get more information about the dehydrated meat. I would also like to know, whether this site allready started to use the new meat content calculation?

Dottie

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Re: Dried meat feed
« Reply #25 on: Jul 13, 2018, 15:40 »
4Max - your question is very specific and one which is beyond my remit. David would be able to help you with this. Hopefully he will pick up on the thread soon.
Your post and comments may be helpful to others. Please remember to update your thread. Feedback to the forum is appreciated.

David

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Re: Dried meat feed
« Reply #26 on: Jul 15, 2018, 19:19 »
Great question 4max and apologies for my slow response. I didn't get a response from Bern in the end and with a series of big jobs taking priority over the last few months, I'm sorry to say it dropped off my radar a bit but I have just sent them a follow up email and will keep at them this time


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