All About Dog Food Forum

Dog food and feeding => Dog foods => Topic started by: vivann on Oct 20, 2020, 17:05

Title: Air Dried Dog Food
Post by: vivann on Oct 20, 2020, 17:05
I have been considering trying my dog on Pure dog food, I have read through their website but I cannot find anything to say if it is raw air dried food or precooked air dried food.  Does anyone know please?  (I have sent Pure a message and am awaiting a reply).
Title: Re: Air Dried Dog Food
Post by: Dottie on Oct 20, 2020, 17:54
I think it will be precooked dehydrated. The only company that I am currently aware of that sells dried raw dog food is Rocketo.
Rocketo website (https://gorocketo.com/)
AADF Rocketo review (https://www.allaboutdogfood.co.uk/dog-food-reviews/2040/rocketo-raw-and-gently-air-dried-organic-dog-food)
Title: Re: Air Dried Dog Food
Post by: vivann on Oct 20, 2020, 19:18
That is what I hoped Dottie but the only reference I can find is:

Our meat, fruit and veg are slowly air dried at around 60℃, removing the risk of harmful pathogens (E. coli, salmonella, listeria, campylobacter) whilst retaining the goodness and nutrients of our fresh, human-grade ingredients.

Was reading  up on slow cooker - on low setting the food has to be 74C to be safe to eat!!!  If it is air dried at 60C it does make me wonder if it is raw.  I await their reply with interest.
Title: Re: Air Dried Dog Food
Post by: vivann on Oct 20, 2020, 20:33
Just found that PetsatHome sell Pure and it is described as:  Pure Pet Food Dehydrated Raw Dog Food!
Title: Re: Air Dried Dog Food
Post by: Dottie on Oct 21, 2020, 08:31
That's interesting Vivann - well spotted. It doesn't say that the food is raw on their own website:
Quote
Gently air drying involves blowing warm air across our ingredients to remove the moisture content. Our meat, fruit and veg are slowly air dried at around 60℃, removing the risk of harmful pathogens (E. coli, salmonella, listeria, campylobacter) whilst retaining the goodness and nutrients of our fresh, human-grade ingredients.
David's explanation on
this page (https://www.allaboutdogfood.co.uk/types-of-dog-food) makes things clearer:
Quote
Air drying takes things one step further as the ingredients usually start the process fresh rather than ground or pre-cooked. The food is exposed to a current of heated air, gently removing the water through evaporation which is thought to reduce the damage to proteins, vitamins and enzymes compared to conventional cooking methods. Some air dried foods need to be rehydrated by adding water so, while these packs might seem small, the volume of food you get from them is considerably larger.
So it seems that the ingredients are not pre cooked but the heat from the air drying process does cook them because they say on the website that the harmful pathogens are removed.
Title: Re: Air Dried Dog Food
Post by: vivann on Oct 21, 2020, 10:00
Well, I have had an email back saying:

Our recipes are not technically classed as raw. We use gentle air-drying to remove harmful bacteria that you can get with raw food like salmonella and e coli.

Air-drying involves blowing warm air between 60-90°C over ingredients for several hours to remove the moisture, locking in their goodness and providing healthy, natural, high-quality ingredients for our recipes.

Pure is raw ingredients, air dried naturally. Sometimes referred to as dehydrated raw. This allows owners to feed a high-quality natural diet that isn’t highly-processed, whilst still retaining some conveniences of dry dog food. Many dogs switch to us from raw and do very well on our food.

The vet has told me not to feed Mia on raw food, so I have to decide if this 'not technically raw' food is raw food or not.

I notice that the company you mentioned, Rocketo, say they air dry their raw food at just under 40C!!!

Title: Re: Air Dried Dog Food
Post by: Dottie on Oct 21, 2020, 10:22
Thank you very much for clarifying this issue. I had wondered if the starchy vegetables were cooked because I understand that dogs are ill equipped to digest them unless they are cooked and mashed. I wonder if it is down to how you define the word ‘cook’. To me, the ingredients are cooked to some the extent because the bacteria is removed. You could perhaps take the information to the vet and see what he/she thinks about it.

The products look quite good and easy to prepare and store.  They attract good nutritional ratings on the Dog Food Directory. I also like the simple recipes. AFAIK the Vegi Plus Mixer is the only one of its kind on the market although I stand to be corrected. I think it would be useful if  they sold another variety  with an alternative to potato.
Title: Re: Air Dried Dog Food
Post by: vivann on Oct 21, 2020, 10:36
There are a couple of their recipes with sweet potato in but the rest seem to have potato or parsnip or both in .  I notice that the only percentage of ingredients given is the meat content.  I am not sure why some people say avoid potato (a friend of mine does) dogs must have eaten left over potatoes for many, many decades - didn't seem to do them any harm.  I must admit it would be good to have more than one vegi recipe.
Title: Re: Air Dried Dog Food
Post by: Dottie on Oct 21, 2020, 10:49
White potato is ok but sweet potato has better nutrients. Some dogs don’t tolerate white potato very well - one of mine is in this category. Parsnips and carrots are starchy vegetables. Broccoli and the like have good nutritional value.
Title: Re: Air Dried Dog Food
Post by: COASTER on Oct 22, 2020, 02:30
Hi Vivann,

I haven't posted on here much lately but have been fairly active here in the past.

I have just spent significant time reading all your posts on these forums before replying in this thread.

On the face of it , lots potentially going on.......You initially presented a little like a rabbit in the headlights , however , when invited to expand you have gone into more detail & used more terminology than many professionals. You have also mentioned many products & foods fed or being  considered. 

Mindful you have been given advice by Dottie & (elsewhere) by David. .......I therefore hope that my input here is not deemed inappropriate.

Notably there is an indication she scavenges or has prior done so & on at least one occasion this was timed close to an episode. If it were my dog I would want to rule out scavenging.

Due to all that lot I am loathe to given any advice at variance to a vet. If you still have or in future get more issues then my thoughts re best approach are similar to what David prior suggested.........An elimination diet.  This is not to say diet is the problem, however, settling on a suitable diet that works will in  my view help.

My sensible advice here from me is listen to your vet IF you trust your vet or maybe seek a 2nd opinion from another  vet ( perhaps one that is diet aware &/or can also consider a holistic approach ). I could mention other product suggestions but do not feel it is appropriate to do so right now. 

Title: Re: Air Dried Dog Food
Post by: vivann on Oct 22, 2020, 10:12
Hello Coaster,

Thank you for your response.  I do listen to the vet, when I can get hold of him!  I believe that the Purina Pro Plan HA was pretty much an elimination diet (vet said it would give her stomach a chance to heal), she was on that until mid April, she even had it as treats!!  The vet did say that when the time came to change her from the Purina in April that we would discuss it and he could suggest what to try.  Lockdown came and it was impossible to get hold of a vet unless it was an emergency.  I do recall that he said low fat, however, when I eventually spoke to him about getting my girl spayed, I mentioned low fat food and he checked her pancreas results and said they were ok so no need.  I took her for an annual check about three days later and said I wondered if a low carb diet would be worth trying as I felt her itchiness had got worse on the Purina which is high carb (and to the best of my knowledge it can be changed to sugar in the body - but I may be wrong), he said something about short chain whatever and didn't think it would make the itchiness worse.  He did say at some point, in the past, that he doesn't think my dog has a food allergy.

Regarding the scavenging - she has a muzzle to stop that.  I did take it off after she had worn it for some time but as she was very interested in a patch of grass last weekend and wouldn't come when called (I had a look at what she was so interested in and I believe it was cat poo) the muzzle went back on.  I have to say that soft animal poo squished through the muzzle so she can get hold of it is not pleasant, means both muzzle and dog to clean up :(

At the time she became ill in December there were a lot of cases locally of a virus causing diarrhea (not sure about vomiting though) in dogs, I did ask the vet if that is what she had but he said not as her symptoms worse and lymph nodes enormous.  He didn't think she had been poisoned either.  I also mentioned the fact that she had licked a semi dried pool of what looked like diarrhea on the field the day before but he dismissed it as too soon.  I had wondered if she had Giardia but have no idea if it was tested for.  I know she was given a second lot of antibiotics to run alongside the ones she was already taking, he muttered something about Helicobacter spp on the histology report (among other things) - didn't make great reading especially the bit about possibility (although unlikely in view of being 19 months old) of enteric lymphoma.  PARR test for that.

My dog seems to be eating well at the moment (putting on weight), I have been weaning her off the Purina (she is refusing it anyway) mixing it with other kibble and adding tinned sardines, home cooked meat or fish with some veg and she seems very happy with that.  I just want to find a food that is good quality, that doesn't upset  her stomach.  I will give the Pure Vegi Plus a try and add cooked meat or fish to it.  She will eat some tinned/pouched wet food but I find that some of it, like Country Hunter is a bit rich for her and she doesn't like their chicken menu at all, even though she loves chicken.  I may also try a good quality cold pressed food, I was reading on the Gentle website that fresh meat, fish, veg can be added to that too.  The mini poodle seems to have loads of energy, too much at times, so must be doing something right.
Title: Re: Air Dried Dog Food
Post by: Dottie on Oct 22, 2020, 10:45
Try one thing at a time, giving it a fair trial of several weeks so that you can properly assess the response. Your choice of Vegi Plus Mixer is a good one as it has a simple recipe. Try to aim for at least 60% meat and for the time being start with one source then add another about a week later. My choice would be white fish if the dog is ok with it. Don’t give anything else but the food. Warm it before serving to increase palatability. Consider an oil supplement such as Efavet capsules,  Viacutan capsules and pump dispenser, Yumega.

You might find that her scavenging decreases once she gets onto a good, well balanced diet.
Title: Re: Air Dried Dog Food
Post by: vivann on Oct 22, 2020, 11:10
Thanks Dottie, yes that is the plan - try one thing for some time and if not great change it.
 
Just spoken with the lady at Gentle dog food and she tells me they have a lot of success with Poodles and poodle crosses as they are fussy and can have sensitive stomachs!  I have sent her my address as she is going to send samples which is great.  I haven't ordered the vegi plus yet so will see how the Gentle goes down first.  As I mentioned, the vet doesn't think she has a food allergy but I do find some foods a bit rich for her.

I hope you are right about her not scavenging if she is on a good diet!  I have always tried to give her a good diet but fussy dogs don't make it easy.  I think from what I read on the Toy and Minature Poodle Club facebook page, there are very many dogs who eat cat and other animal poo  :-[
Title: Re: Air Dried Dog Food
Post by: COASTER on Oct 22, 2020, 12:43
Vivann,


I have read the comments re various foods, & (possibly not wholly definitive), prognosis & diagnosis. I am very mindful the dog has been opened up with some invasive exploratory work, & testing going on.

A big red flag for me is you say your vet has stated they do not think your dog has food allergies yet you have been advised to feed a well known vet pushed HA food !!!!



Don't rule out a K.I.S.S. ( Keep It simple stupid)..........if it sits better replace the word stupid with "strategy".



To me, in back of my mind I was be thinking along lines of.............   

Young dog + Scavenging + Fussy eating + Food changes &/or wrong amounts = Diarrhea

Colitis, Giardia , IBD  (or maybe IBS)........the result is the same........... Diarrhea

...........How would I deal with it ?


Dealing with dog Diarrhea


1. Supervise all activity to eliminate scavenging, ( this includes eating mud, garden matter faeces etc)

2. Starve the dog & give water only for 24hrs or maybe a bit longer

3. Feed one bland white meat protein & that alone (some say add rice - in my experience it can hinder recovery)

4. Monitor output, Cut back or revert to 2 if loose again....

5. If ok gradually re-introduce original food.

6 IIf still loose after 3 days consider Vet &/or AB's etc 





Managing a True Elimination diet.............

Only feed one bland protein source NOTHING else

White fish for 10 days

Monitor

Cooked chicken 10 days

Monitor

Cooked beef 10 days

Monitor ( output, skin, eyes, condition, itching ) etc etc etc



If you manage to  find 3 tolerable protein sources you have more than enough to use these as a base for meals. Apply similar process if introducing other stuff to the bow.


You again speak of  other food brands....the compositions of bought foods have many many ingredients.  If you feed a certain brand with multiple ingredients in composition you may have no idea what the problematic one is in the event dog becomes loose on it...Dottie is the go to for home cooked advice.


Your thoughts have already swayed from air dried (ziwipeak air dried claims to be good but very expensive) & now  mention cold pressed & the brand Gentle.........If later looking at cold pressed, wanting  a decent food from a trusted brand with great ongoing customer support you will struggle to do better.....With cold pressed foods the binders get reckoned as carbs on here. ...Some cold pressed foods rely on potato flakes others use mineral clays etc etc. Beth @  Gentle may be able to explain more.


It may well be that you have a dog with a multitude of various issues going on BUT IMO you are massively overthinking things & adding far too many variables........wet, dry-extruded, air dried, home cooked , cold pressed, fillers, not to mention Cassia gum (I had never heard of before your post & Davids response) 

 
If the dog is currently doing okay - maybe don't rush to do anything !


Good Luck  :)

 
Title: Re: Air Dried Dog Food
Post by: COASTER on Oct 22, 2020, 19:33
Thanks Dottie, yes that is the plan - try one thing for some time and if not great change it.
 
Just spoken with the lady at Gentle dog food and she tells me they have a lot of success with Poodles and poodle crosses as they are fussy and can have sensitive stomachs!  I have sent her my address as she is going to send samples which is great.  I haven't ordered the vegi plus yet so will see how the Gentle goes down first.  As I mentioned, the vet doesn't think she has a food allergy but I do find some foods a bit rich for her.

I hope you are right about her not scavenging if she is on a good diet!  I have always tried to give her a good diet but fussy dogs don't make it easy.  I think from what I read on the Toy and Minature Poodle Club facebook page, there are very many dogs who eat cat and other animal poo  :-[

If you spoke to Beth @ Gentle ( owner) she is brilliant... I posted earlier re Gentle before seeing this post.
Title: Re: Air Dried Dog Food
Post by: Dottie on Oct 22, 2020, 20:15
Hello Vivann. I am glad that you have had a productive discussion with the owner of Gentle. Beate has a lot of experience with this type of food.  As you mentioned, it can be supplemented with extra protein and this is what I used to do. I chose the lower fat proteins such as white fish, chicken and turkey. You seem to have narrowed it down now to two products so that has to be a good thing. Now you need to choose just one and see how it goes. If you select cold pressed, remember that it must be weighed because it is heavy and the amount will look small in comparison to kibble. It's so easy to overfeed this food at first. Also, if your dog prefers wet food you can easily soak it in tepid water for 10/15 minutes. Take the transition steady - don't rush it.

Coaster mentions mineral clays in cold pressed food and these are usually included in the Markus Muhle products. I understand that they are there to improve the digestive system so might be helpful for your dog.  Good luck and please let us know how you get on as I am interested in the outcome.
Title: Re: Air Dried Dog Food
Post by: vivann on Oct 22, 2020, 20:41
Hello Dottie,

I will certainly keep you informed - I am plodding on with adding mostly home cooked meat and veg to Mia's kibble, still weaning her off the Purina HA.  I will probably keep a bag of it by me just in case because it really did seem to aid her recovery from whatever it was she had.

Title: Re: Air Dried Dog Food
Post by: vivann on Oct 23, 2020, 14:53
Vivann,


I have read the comments re various foods, & (possibly not wholly definitive), prognosis & diagnosis. I am very mindful the dog has been opened up with some invasive exploratory work, & testing going on.

A big red flag for me is you say your vet has stated they do not think your dog has food allergies yet you have been advised to feed a well known vet pushed HA food !!!!



Don't rule out a K.I.S.S. ( Keep It simple stupid)..........if it sits better replace the word stupid with "strategy".



To me, in back of my mind I was be thinking along lines of.............   

Young dog + Scavenging + Fussy eating + Food changes &/or wrong amounts = Diarrhea

Colitis, Giardia , IBD  (or maybe IBS)........the result is the same........... Diarrhea

...........How would I deal with it ?


Dealing with dog Diarrhea


1. Supervise all activity to eliminate scavenging, ( this includes eating mud, garden matter faeces etc)

2. Starve the dog & give water only for 24hrs or maybe a bit longer

3. Feed one bland white meat protein & that alone (some say add rice - in my experience it can hinder recovery)

4. Monitor output, Cut back or revert to 2 if loose again....

5. If ok gradually re-introduce original food.

6 IIf still loose after 3 days consider Vet &/or AB's etc 





Managing a True Elimination diet.............

Only feed one bland protein source NOTHING else

White fish for 10 days

Monitor

Cooked chicken 10 days

Monitor

Cooked beef 10 days

Monitor ( output, skin, eyes, condition, itching ) etc etc etc



If you manage to  find 3 tolerable protein sources you have more than enough to use these as a base for meals. Apply similar process if introducing other stuff to the bow.


You again speak of  other food brands....the compositions of bought foods have many many ingredients.  If you feed a certain brand with multiple ingredients in composition you may have no idea what the problematic one is in the event dog becomes loose on it...Dottie is the go to for home cooked advice.


Your thoughts have already swayed from air dried (ziwipeak air dried claims to be good but very expensive) & now  mention cold pressed & the brand Gentle.........If later looking at cold pressed, wanting  a decent food from a trusted brand with great ongoing customer support you will struggle to do better.....With cold pressed foods the binders get reckoned as carbs on here. ...Some cold pressed foods rely on potato flakes others use mineral clays etc etc. Beth @  Gentle may be able to explain more.


It may well be that you have a dog with a multitude of various issues going on BUT IMO you are massively overthinking things & adding far too many variables........wet, dry-extruded, air dried, home cooked , cold pressed, fillers, not to mention Cassia gum (I had never heard of before your post & Davids response) 

 
If the dog is currently doing okay - maybe don't rush to do anything !


Good Luck  :)

Thank you for this Coaster, such good information that I have copied and pasted it into word and saved the document.

I feel I may have misled you with my comment about a local outbreak of a virus causing diarrhoea in dogs (I don't know if it caused vomiting or not).  I had settled on Arden Grange kibble with a topper of Lukullus wet food which did seem to suit my dog until the afternoon of Monday 9th December when she vomited bile, refused to eat.  I did think she may have eaten something that had caused this.  I offered boiled white fish 24 hrs after her last meal.  That was ok, fed her fish again later in the day with added rice - she vomited the lot undigested.    Saw a vet following day, anti sick jab and asked me to bring a poo sample.  She was able to eat boiled white fish or chicken breast while the anti sick jab lasted but started vomiting again after a couple of days.  Unfortunately, don't often get to see the same vet and the next one (franchise partner) wasn't interested in poo sample.  Mia was on meds and getting worse until 19th December when they ran tests and opened her up.  I opted for the overnight in Vet hospital for her as she needed hydration and meds to restart the peristalsis.  She did have some diarrhoea but eventually it was massive gas and just liquid.  I was told that when she was opened up, apart from inflammation, she was full of water and mucus.  I believe he said they washed her tummy out.

I wasn't convinced about the Purina HA but I have to say she did well on it and her tummy was fine.   In fact probably better than ever.   I should mention, she was five months old when I got her:  very travel sick, if pulled on lead she was sick, doing zoomies round the garden would make her sick (very difficult to stop her zooming as she is pretty quick and agile).  Her poo was quite often copious with mucus (maybe she had IBS).

I hadn't thought to just feed her one protein and only that, I will bear that in mind should any future need arise.  What I have done is use the Purina as a base starting point and given her a small amount of either home cooked white fish or chicken breast, or meat/fish with veg. or a small (topper) portion of wet food just to try.  Added a small amount of a different kibble if ok - if any of it had an adverse affect I took it back to base.

I have not tried anything completely different yet as I was reaching out for information, then researching it.  I have concluded that maybe I will try the Pure Vegi plus and add the protein or maybe the Gentle cold pressed - this is because I feel that extruded kibble may not be the best food for her, even though before she was ill, the Arden Grange and Lukullus wet food did seem to agree with her.  Also some of the wet food has carrageenan (which was red now orange alert on AADF) and thickeners like Cassia Gum (which is often used with Carrageenan).  Some research suggested that Carrageenan can be altered by the acid in dogs stomach to make it an ingredient that causes inflammation.  I don't want to take any chances.

It doesn't help that one day she will eat with relish and the next it is poison >:(

Thank you once again for your input.
Title: Re: Air Dried Dog Food
Post by: COASTER on Oct 23, 2020, 16:39
No probs,


Glad to be of some use. There will be plenty with thoughts at variance to mine so don't take my ramblings as gospel.

Personally if I had a dog with digestive IBS or IBD,  excess gas & inflammation I would want to stay away from dry extruded kibbles....If feeding to a dog absent of such issues I thoroughly pre-soak in water to avoid further expansion in the gut. Bloat but that is a condition I try to avoid with dogs.

Expect some looseness at change. There are mixed thoughts re product changes....I usually change straight way being careful not to overfeed & confuse matters by causing excess loose output)

I am mindful that my shared thoughts if acted on could influence a decision that possibly might have bad  consequences for a dog if acted upon.  Obviously any decision are entirely yours.

Off to walk the dogs now................. :)