Raw Feeding

[Red_Akita]

Being new on this forum, I thought I would share my opinion on raw food.
I have used it myself -sometimes for prolonged periods of times- and it undeniably has positive sides, the main being having full control on what your dog eats and avoiding unnecessary processing (if dog's digestive system doesn't required meat to be cooked, why bother?).

My main point of disagreement is the so-called ancestral diet: wolves eat raw meat only, dogs evolved from wolves, hence dogs should eat the same as wolves. If I apply the same train of thoughts to ourselves, I obtain the following: primates are frugivores (fruit eaters - they do occasionally eat meat but it's quite rare) humans evolved from primates (around 99% of genes in common, very similar to wolves and dogs) hence humans should eat fruit. Despite the recent vegan and vegetarian currents, I still believe that humans are true omnivores and veganism is more of an ethical issue rather than a true nutritional requirement... or at least the scientific community hasn't reached an unanimous agreement on the topic.
The point is: humans differ in living habits from any other primate on one main topic. At some point in the last 20000 years we learned to farm the land and herd some animals of pacific nature and use their products as source of food (milk, eggs, meat) or general protection (wool, leather), basically finding a replacement for the energy consuming activity of hunting.
Very similarly, contemporary dogs' living habits differ from wolves on one main topic: they scavenge rather than hunting (it's no surprise that before genomes were mapped, dogs were thought to be closely related to coyotes, given they are both scavengers of the canidae family). This change happened even before humans learned herding: some estimates go as far back as 50000 years, when humans were nomads and used dogs' enhanced senses as warning against predators, giving them food leftovers in exchange -again, a species found a way to replace the energy consuming and risky activity of hunting, using another natural talent.

This post is becoming too lengthy for an easy reading so I'll cut to the conclusions: even though wolves (particularly gray wolves - canis lupus) and dogs (canis familiaris) share a very large amount of their genome, evolution played a massive role in transforming dogs in a way that raw meat is not a strict nutritional requirement anymore. I repeat, there are positive sides like keeping control of what is being fed (particularly useful for dogs with food intolerances, like in my case), and it is a great, easy way of providing calcium via raw bones. But aside from that, is really more of a personal choice rather a real benefit for the dog.

All this is my humble opinion and I am entirely open to pacific debate

[Dottie]

Thank you for an interesting post.  I have had a few episodes of feeding my dogs raw complete. First time was a weight control issue but it didn't work out, despite giving just under 2% of body weight (weighed accurately). 

Another time it was due to being tempted by all the hype but I could not see it making any difference in my dogs and it was expensive.  I also lacked freezer space.  During that particular episode my elderly dog,  who had never had anal gland problems began to need frequent visits to the vet. Whether it was coincidence I don't know but it resolved once her food was changed and she was settled on cold pressed.  The same dog actually began to lose weight this time - the product was  lower in fat than the first so I had to keep increasing the quantity.

I then tried it again on one of the dogs due to health reasons (dermatitis) - that didn't go well either and without going into detail, I think it was actually a bit disastrous so I had to stop it. That dog's skin is much better. 

Interspersed with all this I have sometime given cubes of raw complete as a replacement for their usual food to give some variety. One of the products I had given was recalled due to contamination with salmonella.  I don't know whether I had that particular batch but the dogs were alright.  However, the incident made me think carefully because my OH is elderly, quite poorly and is steroid dependent.  His immune system is shot and he easily gets infections.  I had been concerned about the infection risk before but this incident made me realize that I just daren't risk it, no matter what the 'experts' say about the lack of evidence regarding transmission of salmonella, campylobacter, listeria etc. 

I realize that this sounds rather negative so I have to say that lots of people feed their dogs raw and they get on fine.  I don't want to put people off - everyone is different.  However, it is not acceptable, or suitable for  some dogs and their owners.  The only way of knowing is to try it.

[Red_Akita]

Thanks for sharing your experience.
This is exactly my point: there can be pros is raw feeding a dog but these need to be evaluated on a case by case basis, as sometimes the cons are just as many -if not more. Raw feeding is not going to bring deliverance for all dogs problems and it's not the best option in an absolute way.
As long as we keep an eye on the ingredients quality and food processing, I see absolutely nothing wrong in commercial pet food, even extruded. There are actually some pretty good extruded food brands around at the moment.

[Dottie]

Yes, I agree that there are some good extruded products. In the past when I have fed extruded I have sometimes soaked it for palatability.  I also like Rodney Habib's advice about occasionally replacing a meal/topping up with something home cooked to increase variety.  I realize that this is not within everyone's means so I would say feed the best food you can afford, appropriate to the dog's activity level and in the right quantity so the dog does not become overweight. 

[Tinyplanets]

I have mostly fed raw but am having to reevaluate a bit at the moment. My dog is 7 (estimated) She is wanting to go out less, especially in winter, and is steadily gaining weight. While not overweight, the vet has advised that we don't let her gain anymore. At the moment I am feeding a mix of raw with plain oatmeal in the mornings and home cooked at night. I am trying to find out as much as I can to try and get the balance she needs.

[ofs]

I found this recent article that could be of your interest https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/raw-chicken-linked-to-paralysis-in-dogs

[Rebecca Forrest]

If you feed turkey that is very low fat. I have the opposite problem in that my red setter struggles to put on weight and raw is good for trying to keep it on.  you could also try butternut box which is a cooked dog food, but expensive, or pure which you re hydrate with warm water, which I have used and is very good.

[Seaweed]

I found this recent article that could be of your interest https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/raw-chicken-linked-to-paralysis-in-dogs
Thank you for posting ofs. Dr Conor Brady has an article on his Dogs First blog regarding this study.
https://www.dogsfirst.ie/dr-conor-brady-blog/

[Dottie]

Thank you for locating the report/counter argument about raw chicken. I started reading it but was dismayed when I read this:

Needless to say, this University of Melbournes study was eagerly seized upon by our vets (Pete The Vet, Longford Vets, U-Vet, to name but three) as well as media outlets worldwide (ABC news, News.com, Daily Mail etc) as yet more proof that fresh food as a whole is dangerous for your dog and you should only feed them highly processed, inert, packets of crud made in China.

That is insulting to the millions of people who do their best to feed their dogs good quality processed food. We are fortunate in this country not to have to feed ‘packets of crud from China’. Not everyone can, or wants to give raw food to their dogs and nobody should be made to feel deficient because they don’t feed this.  It is an unhelpful, silly comment but one which some people could seize upon to further their ‘cause’.

The title of the article is guarded i.e. ‘It is highly unlikely.....’. We don’t know whether the Melbourne vets have hit upon something previously unknown, leading some of us to be more confused than ever! 

[ofs]

Posted in one of  of the  groups that I follow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xUgt0XzCFQ&app=desktop

[Dottie]

OFS- thank you for this interesting link. Just to clarify, the title of the video is New insights on the impact of feeding raw red meat to dogs.  It contains an overview of some new research by Dr Nick Cave, from Massey University, New Zealand.  Dr Cave has found that "Raw red meat diets decrease faecal microbial diversity in the dog” and he goes on to explain the importance of this to the general health of the dog.  I don’t know the particulars of the research but it is maybe worth mentioning that according to the title the research applies to raw red meat. One of the principles of feeding a raw diet is variety which may include poultry, fish, eggs and for some raw feeders, suitable vegetables and fruit.

It would seem that the video was uploaded by Waltham Centre for Pet Nutrition. The research was presented at a symposium that Waltham hosted. This piece of research, and other discussions about nutrition can be found here.